To Love The Brand: A Lesson On Brands, People, & Well-Placed Words

People buy with their emotions. They buy what they vibe with. If consumers aren't feeling it, don't expect revenue to grow. And what about revenue? How can connecting with a consumer on a raw level actually help you generate revenue? Are those two things related? Erik Kiker, Chief Messaging Officer at tolovethebrand.com, knows how to connect the two and never skip a beat. We go deep into the psyche of how brands are sometimes inadvertently turning consumers off because of the discouraging messages they're sending out. Messaging makes a difference. Find yours and grow your audience now.

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Michael Maher  00:02

Welcome everybody to The Longer Game. I don't know why I had my hand up here. That seems like it's probably improper. But welcome. I'm very aggressive today. But welcome to The Longer Game. I'm excited to talk with you about retail, and about the future retail. That's what we're all about here. The Longer Game is just talking about the future retail, what's happening right now, how is it evolving, and I'm very excited to have, I'm just gonna say my new good friend, Eric Kiker on the show. Yeah, he runs a, I would say branding company called the digestible brand. And we're going to talk a little bit more about what you've been doing over the past couple months. But I just want to say, I have not had a real in depth conversation with Eric until right now. So this is very fresh, but I already know that I gel with him because I see the content that he puts out, it seems very genuine, it's very authentic. That's what I'm all about is authenticity, even if it gets a little messy, and it's like, well, that you know that why would you say that? That seems kind of rude. Well, you know, here's what I said. Oh, okay, cool. So there's some times when things get messy, you can get into better understanding. And you get into more levels of authenticity. And then there's more intimacy in a good way in a friend way doesn't everything doesn't have to be sexual people. I know that that's from my head. I was good.  But yeah, there's more closest and you learn really learn more about someone. So Eric, tell me about what you've been up to the past couple months.

Eric Kiker  01:23

I'm trying to make - well, thank you, Michael, thanks for having me on. What I've been doing for the past couple of months, and really, for the last year is trying to make marketing work better for marketers. I've discovered this thing. In my work, I started I was about a year ago, I was working on a on an output for a client and I this thought occurred to me what is it that makes somebody love a brand? And I started thinking about it. And I was like, Well, you know what, if you really, really really love a brand, that brand is doing something for you that is improving your self-esteem. It's improving the way you feel about yourself and,

Michael Maher  01:57

What makes you say that? I'm just really curious as to the ethos behind that because I agree with it, but I want to hear you articulate that.

Eric Kiker  02:24

Well, I think why else would you love a brand like really truly love a brand and wanted around you and on you and in your mouth and in your body all the time? 

Michael Maher  02:38

Yeah.

Eric Kiker  02:38

Like why would that it's got to be we are human beings it although we don't none of us I don't think I mean I do but a lot of people don't like talking about psychology and what's going on in our subconscious minds. And some people don't,

Michael Maher  02:53

I love that. 

Eric Kiker  02:54

Some people don't even think our subconscious mind is affecting us at all. 

Michael Maher  02:58

Yeah, I like, I like listening to my wife is one of those people who doesn't like so if I want to have those kind of conversations, I gotta come talk to you, Eric, because she's like, that's really boring. I don't want to talk about that. But I still love her and want her around. And in my mouth and on my body and all that kind of stuff. Which is required typically in a relationship I think with someone is because you want, they help you to feel better about yourself and be a better version of yourself.

Eric Kiker  03:01

Why do you love another human being? I mean, I think, *inaudible*, man.

Michael Maher  03:24

Yeah.

Eric Kiker  03:26

Most of us love and truly love people. If it's not sort of like a destructive relationship or a great relationship. The reason that we're with that person is they make us feel good about ourselves.

Michael Maher  03:30

And we feel we yeah, we feel like we have the potential and when things are done, right, we have the potential to do great things. I would not be an entrepreneur sitting here doing what I'm doing today, if it wasn't for my wife, not just because there have been times when I've been making a lot less money, or I didn't take a paycheck. But it was because she was mentally emotionally supportive of me in being an entrepreneur and it's it's super difficult to any entrepreneurs out there find community. That's how I really started to come around. But I was gonna say that, you know, how, like, I love talking about psychology, subconscious mind, all that stuff like I would listen to, right did listen to Sam Harris and Jordan Peterson trying to have a podcast. And they spent two and a half hours discussing the premise of what they would talk about. And they couldn't agree on some basic ground rules. So that was the whole podcast then disagreeing on the ground rules. Well, I can't I'm not going to agree with that because of this. And it was so entertaining, but you're right. Some people be like, click that's boring. I want to hear about how someone's night out on the town where the case will be. So feel free to explain as much as you want and the psychological or philosophical part as well *inaudible*.

Eric Kiker  04:54

That's yeah cool, that's just what I believe. I believe that we are, um, we have this little thing. I think it runs around in a part of our brain called the amygdala. And it's our survival instinct. And a lot of the,

Michael Maher  05:12

Reptilian brain. 

Eric Kiker  05:14

Well, yeah, it's the thing that says, What did you do yesterday? I did this, did you? Are you still alive? Yes, do that again. Because, you know, we are I think I don't have a bunch of letters behind my name to prove any of this out or to support any of my opinions, but done a lot of reading. And I've done a lot of listening. And I've done a fair amount of thinking about this idea that we are wired for survival. It used to be a whole lot more important,

Michael Maher  05:44

Yeah.

Eric Kiker  05:44

Before we got the technology in the modern stuff that we have now. 

Michael Maher  05:48

And that's working against us now that survival instinct, I think, 

Eric Kiker  05:53

How so?

Michael Maher  05:55

We see things that are different than us that we don't like, and things that are foreign to us. And in the past. You know, anthropologically or evolutionarily speaking, something we didn't know we're unsure of, we're very cautious around. And if we were harmed by it in any way, we instantly said, Don't be around that thing. So like a saber-toothed, Tiger, 

Eric Kiker  06:18

Totally.

Michael Maher  06:19

Bites us. But now, if you're white, or if you're black, and you've had about an interaction with someone of the other race, you could form an opinion about a whole group of people. And I'd say very prematurely, and you know, wrongly as well, just because of an interaction you have, and then every interaction you have, that is negative, it reinforces that and then, the positive ones, because your mind is so closed off, and it's that reptilian side, it'll say, oh, that's just that's, that's not the, you know, the odds are still against you. That's just a coincidence. You got lucky that time. So I think that reptilian side has caused us as we try to be a more my goals is to be loving to people, I love all people, even the the murderers, the killers, all those people, and here's why. They were all made in the image of God. And I believe they all are worthy of being humans and being treated well. And so even if you've done something bad, it doesn't mean I for, I say, Okay, what you did was okay, but you still deserve love, you still deserve to be treated like a human.

Eric Kiker  07:23

Yeah, I buy, I bought all of that. And another way to say that is to say that everybody is doing the best they can in the moment with what they have at their disposal. 

Michael Maher  07:34

Exactly. There's so many I think about kids who don't have someone saying, you can graduate high school and go to college. If nobody's saying that in that kid's life, and their dad isn't around, and their mom's working two jobs, or their mom also isn't around, and they're by themselves and their friends are getting in trouble. They're gonna go get in trouble, too. That's just that's their environment. So, you know, if you don't have positive people building into you, I don't think you're going to have a positive outlook on life. And if you have an outlook on life, and if you have negative people building into you, I think it's going to be negative. So yeah, I think you're absolutely right. People are doing the best they can with what, what they have the disposal.

Eric Kiker  08:11

Yeah, and I think we all realize that I think we would all do much, much better as a species. But I think what you were saying about that reptilian brain, I see somebody that doesn't look like me. 

Michael Maher  08:23

Yeah.

Eric Kiker  08:23

That looks unfamiliar. That's a warning. 

Michael Maher  08:27

Right.

Eric Kiker  08:27

And I think that warning is okay. 

Michael Maher  08:30

Yeah.

Eric Kiker  08:30

But from a historical standpoint, and from a, you know, an ancient human standpoint, it was maybe important, like life-threateningly important. 

Michael Maher  08:39

Right.

Eric Kiker  08:39

Now, it's sort of like this whole thing, like, the conversations we had around racism. That really peaked a couple of summers ago. And you had people, it was even hard for me, given being a student of psychology to finally break through, let my guard down and say, Yeah, I have biases,

Michael Maher  09:03

Right.

Eric Kiker  09:03

I grew up in the South. My family grew up in the South, I had these things that were sort of like a part of every day, that colored my sort of thinking. And now I have to admit, I do have biases, but I also have this great big prefrontal cortex, 

Michael Maher  09:23

Right, that allows *inaudible*,

Eric Kiker  09:23

That allows me to go, Oh, you're being you're that's your bias that you're that being set off right now. Let's overcome that. 

Michael Maher  09:31

There we go.

Eric Kiker  09:32

With conscious thought. 

Michael Maher  09:33

Yeah.

Eric Kiker  09:34

And so, I mean, I saw so many people saying, Oh, I'm not racist. I'm not racist. I love it. I don't even see skin color. It's like, yeah, that's the thing *inaudible*.

Michael Maher  09:43

How can you not?

Eric Kiker  09:44

Just say you have biases.

Michael Maher  09:46

Yeah, and then you're more real and authentic. 

Eric Kiker  09:48

Right. So but that sees that underlies the idea behind, you know, a lot of people I idolize Brene Brown. She talks a lot about vulnerability and this vulnerability is so difficult for people because you let your guard down. Especially I think as men, I think you let your guard down. And I think what that survival instinct is telling you is, don't let your guard down man, they'll call you weak or they'll call you a baby or worse yet, they'll call you a PSS PUSS. You know what? 

Michael Maher  10:22

Yeah. I love that you spelled that *inaudible*.

Eric Kiker  10:27

Wrong. I spelled it wrong.

Michael Maher  10:28

You spelled it wrong. But still, you spell it out. That was like, I want to say cute, but it was cool. Also that *inaudible* anyway, 

Eric Kiker  10:35

Say the word. I don't want to say the word.

Michael Maher  10:35

I know you don't want to say it. 

Eric Kiker  10:36

I think it's so degrading. It's not even about being broadcast. 

Michael Maher  10:39

Yeah. 

Eric Kiker  10:41

So the survival instinct is telling us. Don't be vulnerable, because they'll come take your stuff. Or they'll criticize you.

Michael Maher  10:48

Yeah, they'll take your stuff. 

Eric Kiker  10:50

Yeah, so,

Michael Maher  10:52

That's such a basic way of looking at it. Like, they will take your stuff, they will somehow take your good name, or what you feel is your good name. They could take some of your property, they could steal your partner, whatever the case might be, but they can take your stuff and so that survival instinct kicks in. And then as soon as we are hurt, the guard goes back up, and it comes much harder to come back down. 

Eric Kiker  11:16

Or in this day and age. If they're if they don't take my stuff. They're gonna take my worth. 

Michael Maher  11:21

Yeah.

Eric Kiker  11:22

Right. I mean, I know that this is about retail. Right? This is about food brands. So I'll bring up one of the things that,

Michael Maher  11:28

We can go wherever we can go to everything we want, people notice about.

Eric Kiker  11:31

This is cool because I think it's cool. Because it ties right into what we're talking about. 

Michael Maher  11:38

Okay.

Eric Kiker  11:38

Snickers, right? Snickers has been around for like 30 years, they've had the same basic brand position and brand positioning for anybody that doesn't know, or that wants to know what I mean by that is what do you stand for? 

Michael Maher  11:53

Right.

Eric Kiker  11:54

Why would I buy you over something that looks like you what is your position? And Snickers brand position from the very beginning has always been this is not a candy bar. This is something that you eat between meals when you're busy, and you're not around other food when you're hungry, right? So for decades, they did these things like the famous, some people might remember it. The guy's painting the endzone, and you pull back in instead of chiefs, it says chefs and the voiceover comes in and says not going anywhere for a while. Have a Snickers, you know, packed with peanuts. Snickers really sounds great.

Michael Maher  12:37

That was a great voice-over voice. 

Eric Kiker  12:39

Oh, thanks. I'm available for hire. But,

Michael Maher  12:41

Okay, good. 

Eric Kiker  12:43

But not very good. So I can never get scale. But what they've done recently is they did this giant, I'm sure very expensive. consumer insights study. And what they realized was the young man who tend to eat Snickers, it's always been young man who tend to eat Snickers are very worried about maintaining their position in their social circle. 

Michael Maher  13:10

Okay. 

Eric Kiker  13:11

So it's the same thing we were just talking about. If I'm with my buddies, and one of my buddies says some crap about some street person, if I don't go along with them, then I'm a baby or a weakling or a panty waste, or, you know, pick your, you know,

Michael Maher  13:29

Panty waste. Wow, I've never heard that before. I like that, though. 

Eric Kiker  13:31

Oh, it's an old English term. 4000 years ago, when I was born, 

Michael Maher  13:36

I'm going to call my wife a panty waste and see what happens.

Eric Kiker  13:38

Yeah, see what happens. You're right in the pity. 

Michael Maher  13:41

And I'll probably deserve it. 

Eric Kiker  13:43

Yeah, you will. So it's the same thing. So they did. So this campaign that they've come out with, I think that they're still running, 

Michael Maher  13:52

Yeah.

Eric Kiker  13:52

You're not you when you're hungry. And the commercial that I remember is, you know, a bunch of young men who eat Snickers are playing some sort of football, you know, probably touch or flag or whatever. And the quarterback is yelling at one of the guys because he can't catch the ball. And then the camera cuts around and shows that the guy is actually Betty White.

Michael Maher  14:14

Yes, yeah. Oh, yeah. I love that one. 

Eric Kiker  14:16

And so Betty White has this Snickers and turns back into Billy or whatever his name is. 

Michael Maher  14:21

Yeah yeah.

Eric Kiker  14:21

It's all played for laughs but the sociological, I think that's the right word, implications of it. Say, you're not you when you're hungry, which does a couple of things. At first it lets the person off the hook for being hangry or just,

Michael Maher  14:40

Yeah.

Eric Kiker  14:40

You're dropping the ball, lets you off the hook. That wasn't me. In the huddle. It was actually you know *inaudible*

Michael Maher  14:46

It was Betty White. Yeah, and Betty White was calling out to go along with this to say, Hey, I'm not really a football player so if someone were a football player might be the opposite of me. So I'm going to be the opposite of a football player.

Eric Kiker  14:59

Right. So the campaign is played for humor, which is awesome. 

Michael Maher  15:04

Yeah.

Eric Kiker  15:06

But it lets people off the hook for being human. And it says, hey, look, here's your solution. 

Michael Maher  15:12

Yeah. 

Eric Kiker  15:12

And it gives those young men who eat Snickers back their social, their position in that circle, because you desperately don't want to lose that. And we're all like that.

Michael Maher  15:25

And I like to call what you said. And it gives them an excuse, I guess *inaudible*, let them off the hook for being human. 

Eric Kiker  15:33

Let them off the hook for being human. 

Michael Maher  15:35

I like to call that grace. That's one of the words that I use very often.

Eric Kiker  15:39

That's a great word. Yeah, its a great word.

Michael Maher  15:41

And I've been given so much grace, not just by God, but by other people. For the things that I, the stupid things that I've done in the times I've messed up. And I think right now in the in the world, you know, we've been talking about racism or racial reconciliation that we need. When someone says something that's hateful or hurtful. We got to give those people grace and say, look, what you, here's why what you said is hurtful. And here's where this could be an opportunity to change and actually include more people as a part of your circle because of XYZ. And I think what we often do is shame people and say, You're terrible, you're bad, you're bad person. It's like, no, you they had faulty information. They were choosing to be selfish. They were being, you know, they were being an asshole. But they were still, they still are human. Like, let's give them some grace and say, Hey, here's what you actually should have done in this case, or in this scenario? And how do you feel about that? Like I like instead of, you know, being the angry people with the pitchforks, let's try and love people into I know that sound people are going to probably disagree with that. I don't really care. But like, let's,

Eric Kiker  16:57

*inaudible* Michael. 

Michael Maher  16:57

Yeah, let's love people into a new position. Because yelling at them and holding the fiery pitchforks. That's not going to work.

Eric Kiker  17:10

Understanding people and what they're going through, the only meme that I've ever seen, that has actually given me a whole lot of value is the one that says, everyone you meet is fighting a battle, you know nothing about being kind.

Michael Maher  17:28

Yeah, no, absolutely. I that that has been a huge, I'm so glad you said that. Because that's been a huge theme in my life, just over the past year. I talk about as I get older, but really, it's as I dig in and start to find out more about the people that are around me, people that I've known for a while. And as I start to really dig deep, and get closer to those people, I realize everyone has something and I think we could we could sit here and compare and say, Well, my, the thing that I'm dealing with is more public. So it's worse and the thing I'm dealing with whatever. And I think we could compare that but I think we could all just say, Look, everyone has something they're dealing with if you're you know, you're dealing with infidelity in your marriage, but no one else knows that. That's an that's an incredibly difficult thing to I can't imagine because I have not had to deal with that. But it's something that I'm very guarded as a man, knowing that men, I believe men tend to lust and men are kind of prone. I think even anthropologically speaking. And I know there's been a lot of jokes made about like, you know, men just want to sow their seeds to like, you know, monogamy is too cruel rule. But I believe in monogamy. And so I'm cool with that. And I know that it maybe maybe it doesn't fit evolutionary perspectives, but I think it fits societal norms for me, and so I'm okay with.

Eric Kiker  18:55

Right. That's what we've done is we've taken I mean, it's, it's the study of evolutionary psychology. 

Michael Maher  19:00

Yeah. 

Eric Kiker  19:00

Says that. That's why men sometimes act the way they do, 

Michael Maher  19:05

Right.

Eric Kiker  19:06

Because of that biological imperative. But then again, there's a way. 

Michael Maher  19:10

But we made a difference, a difference and socially, and I don't think everyone needs to get married. I'm not saying that. That's what is the right thing to do. But if you believe in marriage, like I believe in marriage, I believe you, you marry one person and stay committed to that person. I'm not going to, if you have a different lifestyle, and you want to be married to multiple people, I'm not going to judge that's not my thing. That's not the hill I'm going to die on. But I'll tell you what I believe in but ultimately, everyone's got their thing that they're going through. There's people are hurting so, so much in the little things that we can do, like maybe leave a little bit extra of a tip on a bill even when someone was really *inaudible* to us, you know, and just walk away and say man, I really hope that just blesses that person and that change their perspective and that mindset or just saying, hey, I really like I have a great smile. Like you don't need to say that to someone. But that could totally change trajectory for them. And you're totally right. You know, everyone's fighting battle we know nothing about being kind could not be *inaudible*

Eric Kiker  20:13

Kindness is what I'm trying to do. I did a LinkedIn thing a while ago, and the only way I market myself is through LinkedIn. And I did a LinkedIn thing.

Michael Maher  20:24

Im with you.

Eric Kiker  20:25

I miss is a growth strategy for brands. So,

Michael Maher  20:29

Okay, and we let's talk a little bit more about this. Because you had said, before we hit record, and I said, let's start recording because this is too good not to record, you had said you believe that most brand messaging fails. I feel like this ties into that. So tell me, why do you feel like most brand messaging fails? Because I do think it lines up with what you were just about to say?

Eric Kiker  20:56

Well, it does. I mean, most brand messaging fails, because of that idea that we just talked about. Everyone is fighting a battle, you know nothing about the kind. But you could also say everyone is fighting a battle they will not tell you about or they might not even know about. So we have a lot of things going on in the subconscious mind of ours that we are, we aren't able to access. The subconscious mind works at an order of magnitude faster than our prefrontal cortex or our conscious mind. There's a lot of things from your childhood and your past and your everything that piles up in there and creates a story that you believe about you about me. I believe the story that I tell myself about me, that is probably not altogether true. But doesn't matter because I believe it. So,

Michael Maher  21:48

Do you ever read a book called The Four Agreements? I feel like you have?

Eric Kiker  21:51

No.

Michael Maher  21:52

Oh you should.

Eric Kiker  21:54

Okay.

Michael Maher  21:54

It would be good.

Eric Kiker  21:55

Okay.

Michael Maher  21:56

You know what I'll do one better. Give me your address, and I'll send you a copy.

Eric Kiker  22:01

Okay, cool. I will do that. I hate reading. But I'll read it. 

Michael Maher  22:05

Oh, well, then let me give you five bucks, and you can buy it on Audible or something. It's a quick, easy read just I'll do whatever I can help you check it out on Audible.

Eric Kiker  22:15

Like new thoughts that aren't my own?

Michael Maher  22:17

No, but that the the reason I said that is because you're kind of talking about that without knowing about it.

Eric Kiker  22:23

Right. Okay, so I'll give you an example. Why most marketing, why most messaging I think fails. It doesn't take into consideration we all know about marketing objections, right? If you ever call customer service to try to cancel something, they've got a whole list of objection, handling things that they're supposed to say.

Michael Maher  22:42

Yeah.

Eric Kiker  22:42

So we all have objections to marketing. But what if? What if the person won't tell you their actual deepest objection? And what if that is because they don't even know what it is, but it's operating in their subconscious mind. So for an example, you run a weight loss brand.

Michael Maher  23:03

Okay.

Eric Kiker  23:03

Come January, we see all the weight loss brands, and they all essentially do the same thing. They show me dozens and dozens of before and after pictures. Right?

Michael Maher  23:12

I'm gonna take their thermogenic pill and I'm gonna lose weight instantly and look rock hard.

Eric Kiker  23:17

That's what they tell you. And they think that all these pictures are going to be proof of their concept.

Michael Maher  23:22

Hey, you're talking about my brand here. Okay, I own a weight loss brand. 

Eric Kiker  23:25

All right, well, you better be careful. 

Michael Maher  23:27

I actually shouldn't be really I don't really but,

Eric Kiker  23:29

Well, maybeyou pick up a little bit of a something out of this, if you believe what I'm saying. So I am a person sitting at home, looking at this ad on Facebook or whatever. And I have had, like many people, ups and downs, successes and failures when it comes to diet. Right now I'm in a failure mode. Right? So whatever, whatever weight I lost before I put back on, you show all me the all these before and afters. My subconscious, which I think again, from a survival perspective is hard on me, because that's what keeps me trying to do better. Right? 

Michael Maher  24:06

Okay, I like it when u put that.

Eric Kiker  24:08

Will say ever heard ever heard anybody say I'm so stupid. I can't believe I did that. I'm so stupid. 

Michael Maher  24:12

Yeah yeah.

Eric Kiker  24:12

I think that's the subconscious mind sneaking through. We want to think it's a joke that I really don't think I'm that stupid. But in that moment, I think maybe I think I'm that stupid. So anyway, I've had these successes and failures. I see all of these before and afters. What's the likelihood that my subconscious says to me? That might work for those people, but I'm not that good.

Michael Maher  24:37

Oh, you want a totally different place than I was thinking. So that's,

Eric Kiker  24:41

Those people have it way more together than I do. Look at all those failures. 

Michael Maher  24:44

There's no way I could do this.

Eric Kiker  24:45

And I don't want to fail again. So what's easier for me to click the buy button or to say no? 

Michael Maher  24:53

Okay.

Eric Kiker  24:53

So I think it's easier for me to say no, and that brand could say to this argument of mine well you know, our sales are up 30% year over year, I could say, well, if you took a different perspective towards your messaging, your sales might be up 80% year over.

Michael Maher  25:08

What would you do differently here?

Eric Kiker  25:10

I, in my workshop process, I worked with a doctor of psychology, in addition to the people from the brand. And on day three of our three day, three hour a day process, we spend the whole time talking about the consumer, and we ask a number of questions, but the two that are the most key are what are the enemies, we're fighting on behalf of our consumer? Okay, and then the next question is, what are the enemies they're fighting inside themselves as it relates to our brand. And so we come up with a list of the deeper objections that consumer would say, if they were exposed to the basic value proposition of this new brand.

Michael Maher  25:56

Whether they know why they're saying it or not, subconsciously, but we know that they're gonna say, because *inaudible*

Eric Kiker  26:01

That's why we're using Doctor psychology to sort of like, okay, what are people not telling us that they are feeling that will affect their buying decision.

Michael Maher  26:11

It's crazy that you can get so into a subjective area of feelings. And in order to really know and understand there, you have to get into a really scientific mindset. I just think those two things are very juxtaposed. And so that's kind of a,

Eric Kiker  26:27

Yeah.

Michael Maher  26:27

Beautiful mix of things together. 

Eric Kiker  26:29

I'm glad you see it that way. I mean, I'll give you another example I'm working on a client of mine is, has a brand called Coco fit,

Michael Maher  26:37

Okay.

Eric Kiker  26:37

And she's just, she was just telling me about a bunch of POs that she got the other day, so she's going to be doing really amazing. And you're going to be seeing her product in stores shortly, probably in the fall. 

Michael Maher  26:50

Okay.

Eric Kiker  26:52

She basically set out to make a far superior Nutella.

Michael Maher  26:58

Oh, good. 

Eric Kiker  27:00

Yeah. So, you know, she had young daughters, they were athletes, they're playing volleyball, they were eating Nutella by the, you know, 

Michael Maher  27:07

By the tableau. 

Eric Kiker  27:08

Ace, and she looked at the label and it was like, she was fairly appalled at the at the amount of sugar and, almost no protein. Yeah. And so she remade it. And it's only got five or six ingredients. There's some collagen protein in there. There's some coconut sugar, there's a, 

Michael Maher  27:26

Oh wow. 

Eric Kiker  27:27

Right. And so it's a really, really delicious chocolate spread. That's actually super good for you. 

Michael Maher  27:37

I can't believe it's got protein. And that's makes me really excited. 

Eric Kiker  27:40

That makes me really happy because I like the idea of teeter-tottering the protein and the carbs. 

Michael Maher  27:45

Yeah. Oh, for sure. Well, and protein. One of the reasons I like protein in anything is and why I'll even say oh, if I'm eating a meal that's kind of high in carbs, I still want to make sure our protein is because eating of the protein will actually delay the anything glucose or that's converted into glucose hitting your blood sugar slows it down until you're not going to have as high of a glycemic response.

Eric Kiker  28:09

Totally. So we did my process. And we came I'll just shortcut it for you. The deepest objection that we came up with on the behalf of our consumer was and it's always in the first person. How on earth am I ever going to eat healthy when bad food tastes so good? And so again, like this Snickers example, I'm letting we're letting people off the hook for feeling the way they feel. How can you eat healthy in this day and age? 

Michael Maher  28:43

Yeah.

Eric Kiker  28:43

There's Taco Bell. There's Chick fil A. There's all these you know, amazing, fast food places where it's so delicious. 

Michael Maher  28:51

Yeah.

Eric Kiker  28:52

And in the states,

Michael Maher  28:53

Nutella tastes incredible.

Eric Kiker  28:55

So good. 

Michael Maher  28:56

Yeah

Eric Kiker  28:56

You just sit there with a spoon.

Michael Maher  28:58

I would do that.

Eric Kiker  29:00

So, and we know. I mean, you've got to I don't think there's anybody alive that would say, oh, eating healthy foods is a really stupid idea. 

Michael Maher  29:09

Yeah yeah.

Eric Kiker  29:09

I don't think people would say that. Of course, eating healthy foods is a good idea. But how can I eat healthy when bad food tastes too good. And so the tagline for the brand is we won't eat better till it tastes better.

Michael Maher  29:26

Mm hmm. 

Eric Kiker  29:28

And that is our goal as a brand is to create foods starting with this one in a variety of forms. That will satisfy that mission. We are going to make good food tastes better. 

Michael Maher  29:42

Okay.

Eric Kiker  29:44

It's different for me then the nutritious meats delicious language that we hear in the natural channel because that doesn't take into consideration what the human is feeling. 

Michael Maher  29:56

Right.

Eric Kiker  29:58

We won't eat better until it tastes better. If I can see somebody reading that and going, Wow, somebody understands them. And again, maybe it happens back here in the subconscious. 

Michael Maher  30:09

Oh, for sure. 

Eric Kiker  30:11

But somebody understands the fight that I have, when it comes to trying to eat healthy, trying to get my kids to eat healthy. All of that stuff. So that's essentially what I'm doing with my work is I'm saying, what is the deepest objection? What is the function of the brand? That and and how do we put those two things together to create a message that overcomes that soothes that reactionary response that wants me make push that brand away?

Michael Maher  30:44

So not only are you getting the people in terms of getting them to like or acquire the product, but you're going right up front and saying, we already know what the objection is. And instead of waiting for you to ask it, we're going to state the objective, by answering it in a way that does not make you put up your guard, it makes you accept it and say, hey, that's what I've been thinking that all along, but I've never been able to articulate it. In that way. 

Eric Kiker  31:15

Or that feels to me or yeah, or that. And so that was very well stated on your case, on your part. So the thought is, if my marketing if my messaging makes somebody feel a little bit better about themselves, because if I let you off the hook in any way, and we never do it in a way that's sort of like super obvious.

Michael Maher  31:37

Yeah. 

Eric Kiker  31:37

Oh, you feel lousy about yourself. So stop. I mean, that wouldn't work.

Michael Maher  31:42

Try eating more cauliflower. 

Eric Kiker  31:43

Yeah. If I can let you off the hook, and make you feel a little bit better about yourself, I will create a bond to the brand.

Michael Maher  31:55

And that is the key for me is the relationship. It's building a relationship, and, humanizing the brand, and building relationship with that person. And when those two things meet, now you've got brand loyalty in a way that you'd never have brand loyalty before.

Eric Kiker  32:15

As long as the brand keeps taking that, that deeper objection and keeps soothing it in,

Michael Maher  32:16

Yeah.

Eric Kiker  32:16

very different ways. So then when I get that first email, after I've bought from Amazon from this product, or whatever, that messaging is continued. So my thinking is, and I'll need some time to get some case studies. But I'm also talking to some people about maybe doing some market research, 

Michael Maher  32:45

Okay.

Eric Kiker  32:46

In a tricky way that sort of like I'm not going to ask people how they feel when they see a thing because they'll never be able to tell me accurately. That will prove this thesis out. 

Michael Maher  32:56

Okay.

Eric Kiker  32:57

But the thought is, every time I talk to that consumer, if I keep that deepest objection in mind, the bond grows stronger. 

Michael Maher  33:07

Okay.

Eric Kiker  33:07

Where now I see in my subconscious mind and maybe in my conscious if the brand lets them in on it at some point in time are we talking about,

Michael Maher  33:16

Oh, I liked that. I liked how you said that. Yeah.

Eric Kiker  33:19

Now I love that brand. I love that brand. Because before they ever before I ever bought anything for me, they made me feel a little bit better about myself.

Michael Maher  33:30

They gave you some grace about being you. 

Eric Kiker  33:33

Yeah, there's you know, like I say, the double-edged sword of this is, you know, the Greek myth of Sisyphus.

Michael Maher  33:41

Yes. Although I did. I did fail Greek mythology in college. That was the one class I failed.

Eric Kiker  33:46

Yeah, I don't even know where I heard it. 

Michael Maher  33:48

I took a great replacement for that and got a D. And it was, like, my wife and I were dating this time. I was like, Well, I mean, I got better than the F so I don't you know, I don't know what to say. 

Eric Kiker  33:59

Yeah, you got you did better. 

Michael Maher  34:00

Here's a Herrick, please. And a Hercules. How am I supposed to know the difference between those two?

Eric Kiker  34:05

No way. That stuff is straight. 

Michael Maher  34:07

Anyway, so Sisyphus. 

Eric Kiker  34:08

Sisyphus got sideways with Zeus got condemned to roll a huge boulder uphill all day every day. And then it falls back to the bottom. And now repeat. I've done this thing on LinkedIn a couple of times where I found this really neat little gif of like a stick figure person doing that. 

Michael Maher  34:25

Yeah.

Eric Kiker  34:25

And I make the point that we are all Sisyphus, we all have these struggles that nobody knows about,  

Michael Maher  34:33

Every day, every day. 

Eric Kiker  34:34

And what makes it worse is we don't like the idea of showing the world those struggles because again, it's back to that vulnerability. People are going to take my stuff, they're going to call me weak or whatever. So marketers don't ever have any idea that people are dealing with these things. So the marketer just keeps coming with the loss 25 pounds in the next 15 minutes.

Michael Maher  35:00

And the reptilian brain. Like we said, it's becoming, you know, the need to survive is becoming less important. But we still have stuff there. The, I think the reptilian and subconscious side of us is so apparent on social media, because most people are posting their, quote unquote best lives. They're not posting I just lost my mom. I mean, I think more people are opening up about that. 

Eric Kiker  35:27

Right.

Michael Maher  35:27

But even then they could say, you know, just lost my mom, she was a great lady. But they're not saying, oh, man, I just cried for 30 minutes in my car outside of Kroger, because, you know, I was supposed to do this with my mom today. And she just passed away, you know, a month ago or something like that, like no one is being I think on a consistent basis that honest and even if there as there are people I tried to be honest, but even then, you know, sometimes I might have rose colored glasses and stuff. But we're putting the best on display. And I have a good buddy named Ron Richards, who talks about entrepreneur porn, which is the man I'm so successful, look at all the stuff I've done, I've got all the money, the cars, the clothes, I, you know, I'm running. I'm a serial entrepreneur, whatever the case might be, but like most entrepreneurs have dealt with a lot of struggles. And that's the reality of entrepreneurship, not the car, not the Mark Zuckerberg, not the Steve Jobs, like most entrepreneurs have had a lot different, maybe similar struggles, but have had a lot different end result, and aren't living the entrepreneur porn life. And that's another reason why people don't want to let their guard down even more, it just reinforces because look at how this great this person is doing. Look at how great this person's doing. Look at how great this person's doing. Why would I want to share with anyone, especially a marketer, who is not a person that I necessarily see a great benefit of this relationship? Being on my part, I'm giving you my money. What am I getting out of this? This is the solve I think for that.

Eric Kiker  37:01

Yeah, I mean, thankfully, I think that what I'm doing is coming along at the right time, because I do see people being more vulnerable and letting their guards down and talking about their failures and asking for help.

Michael Maher  37:15

I know I tried to do that all the time on LinkedIn, and it resonates with people, you know, it resonates because it's true.

Eric Kiker  37:22

I make people love it because it's so refreshing. Because I think intrinsically we know that the perfect Instagram life doesn't really exist. It's not it's fake. And,

Michael Maher  37:35

Just like reality TV shows fake, but we still watch it. 

Eric Kiker  37:38

Yeah, no kidding. 

Michael Maher  37:41

I was trying to explain reality shows to my daughter, who's nine. And it was so crazy, because she said, Is this supposed to be real? We were watching the office. And she said, so is this a real show? And so I had explained her that it was a mockumentary. And she was like, okay, but like, she got it eventually. But I was like, man I'm having to tell her about reality shows how they started real. But now people write scripts warm and all this stuff. And it's crazy. And she picked it up. And I just was like, we're living in a weird world right now. Where reality shows are fake. And now we're making movies about true stories. Like that seems crazy.

Eric Kiker  38:18

It's a funny time. 

Michael Maher  38:19

Yeah.

Eric Kiker  38:20

It's a really funny time. But um, so yeah, that's in a nutshell, sort of like the epiphany that I had about a year ago. And I think I've always done messaging sort of instinctively, in this way. But now it's more purposeful. And there's more of a structure and a purpose to it. And so I think it's making people happy. And hopefully, it's making it the whole idea behind it. And when you listen to it on the surface, you could say, Oh, this guy is just like, woo woo altruistic, kind, 

Michael Maher  38:55

Yeah.

Eric Kiker  38:56

Dadadada but no, it's kindness is a growth strategy. If you can really, really understand that person that you're selling to, they are going to be more likely to buy, you're going to have less friction from people, and you're going to have to hit them fewer times in your ads before they actually click, you are going to build a bond with them that's based on Hey, I see you, I understand what you're going through on a deep, deep level that you might not even understand. So I'm going to give you a message that helps you feel a little bit better about yourself and therefore get my product to try. And then I'm going to create a bond with you over time that keeps you coming back. Which of course cost less to rate. 

Michael Maher  39:40

You're doing the work upfront on the branding side on the story on the messaging so that you can get to a place where you can actually do that with consumers in so many people want to just I've got a great idea for brands put it together, boom, boom, boom, boom, people are gonna love the product but like people buy products, but they also buy stories they also buy into the messaging which is why people probably wear Nike and feel more athletic. Why that would like why you would need a Nike golf shirt. Except unless you're maybe Tiger Woods or something I don't really know. But there was still buying people still like them. So it I think you said, you know, people might think this is just me being altruistic. I think altruistic, I think you're being realistic. And by being realistic, you're identifying the pessimism, that's we already know is there and is alive and well. And you're turning into something that can be altruistic and saying, Hey, what you feel is your greatest crush, doesn't have to be your greatest crush, you're human, give yourself some grace, and start loving yourself a little bit more. And hey, we think this thing that we have for you can actually help you to get to that better place. So I think it's finding altruism, but through the pathway of realism if we simply ignore the negative aspects of things. And we think I mean, for the longest time, if I think Man, I'm just trying to live a life where I'm happy all the time, I'm never going to be happy, because I'm not facing the fact that life is filled with pain. And it's something that we cannot avoid pain is unavoidable in life, you can bring yourself more pain, sometimes you can avoid, you know, some pain, but it everybody will have an experience pain. So the more that you embrace that and say, Hey, I know that I'm an experienced pain. But I have hope. And I have faith, that I can make it through that pain, and come out stronger, and me going through that pain, and then sharing that with other people and being vulnerable, that can actually help those people to get through that pain better. And we can make our, like you said species better over time, then you start living a life where I feel like it comes now from a place of joy. I believe that God can use every single negative thing in your life and turn it into something positive. And so when I meet, met with stress, I still feel the stress, but I go, okay, like, I know, I'm gonna get through this. This is frustrating, there's got to be an answer. There's something maybe the answer is I failed this. And I have to stop it and start over. And maybe that's not the answer I initially wanted. But there is a way through this to get through this. And getting delivered out of it actually prevents you from getting the learning and the knowledge and understanding and growth that comes from dealing with that pain. And so now when I see any pain, I'm sometimes I'm even like, you know what, I'm so thankful for this because now I know that this is just another opportunity for me to grow. And learn. Like I did a really difficult workout yesterday, I had to do something really quick for time and I pushed myself an hour and it hurt. Like it sucked in the middle of it. I know if you use it. We're talking about getting cross before. So you've done some painful stuff. And afterwards, I was like, Man, I'm just so thankful I got to do that. Because I really got to see I push myself I experienced the pain. I knew I was gonna get through it. It was just a really tough six minutes. But I made it through the six minutes.

Eric Kiker  43:04

Yeah, that's awesome.

Michael Maher  43:04

And I'm better now.

Eric Kiker  43:05

Yeah, you know, I see what I'm doing is as capitalistic altruism. So,

Michael Maher  43:12

I love that. 

Eric Kiker  43:13

it's designed to sell more products more easily for brands, 

Michael Maher  43:18

But also better product too, better product that's meeting more of the consumer needs because they're actually focused on what the consumer needs not just selling more stuff. 

Eric Kiker  43:27

Yeah, for sure. So and then about that whole, like, this is a good example of how we don't like facing our doubts. We don't like facing our fears. We don't like facing our you know, sort of insecurities. But like, Have you ever gotten up in the middle of the night to go pee or whatever, you come back and you start worrying?

Michael Maher  43:48

Multiple times, Oh, yeah. For sure. My mind just starts racing in.

Eric Kiker  43:53

Yeah. And I think what we tend to want to do is talk our way out of the fear. 

Michael Maher  43:58

Oh, yeah, no, that is great.

Eric Kiker  44:00

You're not making any sense right now. I mean, I got all this and I'm a badass and I got all this money in the bank, or I got into it, but there's nothing to worry about.

Michael Maher  44:06

Yeah yeah.

Eric Kiker  44:08

It helps. Versus if you were to sit there and think even in the middle of the night, in the middle of a or at the beginning of a tough presentation. What have you just said I've been trying this and it's hard, but it's like, okay, it's perfectly understandable that I would be afraid right now. Because I don't know this. I'm doing something new. I'm going through this life thing for the first time.

Michael Maher  44:34

Yeah.

Eric Kiker  44:35

Maybe I mean, if the Buddhists aren't right, I'm going through it. 

Michael Maher  44:39

Right right right.

Eric Kiker  44:40

And even if they are I'm not aware of my other lives but, 

Michael Maher  44:42

Right now I'm still doing it. It seems like brand new. 

Eric Kiker  44:44

Still the first it's still new to me. 

Michael Maher  44:46

Right.

Eric Kiker  44:46

So I and of course Okay, so go ahead. Go ahead. Fear. What do you got? Because normally I think fear has a lesson for you. 

Michael Maher  44:54

Yes.

Eric Kiker  44:55

And like all of our emotions, like I used to think that there were good emotions and bad emotions. And then I had a teacher who said, No, we're designed to Why do you think all the emotions exist? Because we are designed to experience them all. 

Michael Maher  45:09

Yeah.

Eric Kiker  45:09

And they're all beneficial to us like he said, anger is a sin as a signal that something needs to change. So if you know that or if you believe that and you think about that the next time you get mad, and you go, what is this trying? What change is this trying to create in me?

Michael Maher  45:29

Do I need to change something? Does it need to be a change in my environment? Does this other person need to make a change? Where's the change happening?

Eric Kiker  45:37

It's a matter change missing from this thing, you know, or whatever. 

Michael Maher  45:40

Yeah.

Eric Kiker  45:40

But a lot of times we just get angry, we stay angry.

Michael Maher  45:43

Yeah, we take it out on other people, as if they're the problem when in reality, we've got something that needs to change.

Eric Kiker  45:50

Yeah, I mean, it's all hard. It's all big. And it's all new to me. But it's all really exciting, because I think that what it starts to show you as a human being is that it really is okay to feel whatever you're feeling. And to let your guard down even with yourself. I mean, I think most of us can't let our guards down with ourselves. I mean, the middle of the night fear example is a perfect one. 

Michael Maher  46:13

Yeah.

Eric Kiker  46:13

I'm sitting there by myself. Nobody's, I'm not *inaudible*

Michael Maher  46:16

No one's saying that. No one's shouting this at me. Yeah, yeah.

Eric Kiker  46:19

But I can't even let my guard down with myself. And that's why it's so hard. But I think the more people do that, and also, it's not even conversely, it's, in addition to, if brands were to do that, and start thinking, what are the people really fighting? That my brand can actually help? And then how can I say that in a way? Because maybe weight, isn't what my consumers are really fighting? 

Michael Maher  46:51

Yeah.

Eric Kiker  46:52

I mean, why do you want to lose weight because you don't want to be made fun of, or because you want to feel better about yourself,

Michael Maher  46:58

I want my mom to be proud of me. I want my dad to be proud of me. 

Eric Kiker  47:01

It isn't that I want to weigh 180 pounds, it's something else. And so if you start to understand, if you as a brand, if you just asked yourself this, why might my consumer think that they are not cool enough? For me? 

Michael Maher  47:21

Yeah.

Eric Kiker  47:21

Most of us, I think, in marketing or in brands? Think, how can we make sure that we seem cool enough for them? My question is exactly the opposite. Maybe they don't feel cool enough for you.

Michael Maher  47:35

And we're out casting them by saying, Look at how cool this thing is. You want to be a part of it. And they're like, man, I've never been a part of the cool kids club. Why would I start now?

Eric Kiker  47:43

Even people that are like doing their best to be inspirational to others. 

Michael Maher  47:48

Okay.

Eric Kiker  47:48

How easy is it for me, if I haven't got what that person has to look at that person and go, great story, I'll never be able to do that. You're trying to be an inspiration, and you made it and you've battled all of these obstacles. And if I can do it, anybody can and nobody that you don't believe that as the person with the objection?

Michael Maher  48:13

No. And we've also been desensitized to a lot of inspirational stuff that leads nowhere because of either our objections or because the people were folded.

Eric Kiker  48:22

Well, if they're trying to sell me something through their inspiration, that's one thing, but what if they're, like, trying to be altruistically inspirational?

Michael Maher  48:30

It doesn't, someone doesn't allow that message to come across because of the objections they're putting.

Eric Kiker  48:35

I don't see cracks in your story. I don't see any. You're so amazing. You're untouchable. And I can't be you. So thanks. But I'm not cool enough for you.

Michael Maher  48:47

I think you could eat people who'd have inspirational stories, and talk about how they came from a really poor place, or parents weren't around or they survived something. I think there's a lot of people who haven't had they've had other kinds of traumatic events, maybe they went through severe depression. Maybe they were just kind of bullied in school, maybe they didn't have parents that really cared or built into them. But they didn't have these detrimental events, those big things that seem cataclysmic to people, and because they haven't had those, they think, Well, I'm not going to be successful at that person. I haven't had that crazy, deep, dark low when they've had it in that way. And so I'm never going to be that big top tier person, I'm just going to be mediocre because I didn't live a you know, a crazy messed up life. And in reality, they probably had a lot of things that were messed up and they had some traumas that they went through, and that they're still trying to work through. It's just different kinds of traumas. Like if you're gonna say, Well, what's worse, having your arm cut off or depression.

Eric Kiker  49:51

I don't think you can measure your trauma against somebody else's.

Michael Maher  49:53

Exactly. That's exactly it. So saying, Well, what they went through is more difficult than what I went through. Well Have you know what their mindset was and look at what they've achieved after coming through that if, like, you can also achieve in coming through something as well. But maybe people minimize and say, Oh, I don't have something like that I don't have this and that, I don't need anything to achieve,

Eric Kiker  50:15

That's the same thing we've been talking about. That's insecurity or I'm not good enough, or I'm not, I don't have it as bad as in a person. So I should feel shame about that. But it's, you know, it's good. We're starting to talk about it. I'm gonna see if I can help more and more and more brands. Do this.

Michael Maher  50:33

I want to work with you on some of that some of the brands that we have on Amazon because they think we could, this is the one show that I've not even really, you mentioned Amazon before I did, which is kind of cool. I like this a lot. And this is now officially our longest episode. 

Eric Kiker  50:48

Oh wow!

Michael Maher  50:49

And normally, we go 30 minutes, but I like this conversations too good. I can't,

Eric Kiker  50:53

Oh I appreciate it.

Michael Maher  50:54

I really can't chop it off. But tell us what is can you tell us the new name of the brand that you're working on?

Eric Kiker  51:02

Well, if the USPTO gives me a trademark for it, it will be To Love The Brand. So I want people to love the brand. 

Michael Maher  51:12

Okay.

Eric Kiker  51:13

I want brands to have a brand that people freaking love. Because for me, it makes everything easier. 

Michael Maher  51:20

Yeah.

Eric Kiker  51:20

It makes marketing is not pushing a 300 pound sled across concrete anymore, it's actually maybe a little bit smoother and a joy. And you get what so many people say they want, which is brand loyalty and a community and people that believe but the way you make them believe is make an amazing product. But then understand the barriers to me grabbing that product, because I don't feel cool enough for it. 

Michael Maher  51:48

Right.

Eric Kiker  51:48

That or the product, the more barriers I have are, the deeper my barriers are. So figure out what those things are. And then meet me where I am with your messaging, create the bond, and then deliver what you promised. Listen to me make sure your customer service is really good. Make sure that all those touch points are always bringing me back to that soothing thought that you gave me in the beginning. 

Michael Maher  52:12

Yeah.

Eric Kiker  52:13

And you got me forever. Nobody that comes along and makes you the same formula or that makes the same shoe or that makes the whatever is going to be able to detach me from you. Because you're the one that's actually making it unless somebody else figures out a way to make as good of a product and make me feel even better about myself. 

Michael Maher  52:31

Right? And they're in lies. Oh, now I'm experiencing difficulties as a brand. How can we actually use that opportunity to grow and get more in touch with our consumer.

Eric Kiker  52:40

You just got to keep loving them. You got to keep understanding what makes them not like themselves that much sometimes.

Michael Maher  52:50

So yeah, I think you have to just keep loving them is great for brands and our consumers, I also think it's a great thing just to say, in our world is you just gotta keep loving them, even if they hate themselves, even if they say they hate you, you have to keep loving them because hating them back will not is proven to change.

Eric Kiker  53:13

It's okay, you're doing the best you can with what you got and your *inaudible*

Michael Maher  53:16

Love and love without. And I think sometimes, as humans, you know, as a brand, we say, well, you know, we're going to love that person. And ultimately, we do want something in exchange. But as humans, I think we have to remember that. We may not always get love back from that same person that we're loving, it might come from somewhere else. 

Eric Kiker  53:36

Yeah. 

Michael Maher  53:37

And try to love without expectation of return. Because when you expect something in return, you don't get it, you feel slighted. But if you can just give love away for free. It's so easy. So easy to do. Once you're you know, you feel good, and you're in that place. And sometimes it's difficult, like I hear, like, you know, a voice in my head, I think is probably God saying, Michael, you need to really love on that person. I'm like, I don't want to live in that person, that person ugh I hate that person. And it's like, yeah, well, that's why you need to do it silly. And I'm like, oh, okay, but then I have to really challenge myself and say, How am I going to love that person when I don't even feel it? And I think that can be some of the most powerful and impactful stuff. And if we start to embrace those kind of emotions like that, I think I think that everything could be really incredible. 

Eric Kiker  54:26

I love it. 

Michael Maher  54:26

Tell people, where can people find you Eric? Are you going to be potentially directing a new Snickers commercial, where we're talking about how To Love The Brand? Are you going to be on LinkedIn?

Eric Kiker  54:39

Find me on LinkedIn, just Eric Kiker, just my name and just listen to me shoot off my mouth and say something.

Michael Maher  54:49

That was great. That's a great tagline Listen to me shoot off my mouth and say something by the way, lurkers out there on LinkedIn, because this will eventually get posted on LinkedIn. I'll probably post about it and Eric will get some content as well. But like this and comment because it actually gets more visibility, people start to see what you like and comment. And it gets him more visibility. So Eric, thank you so much for coming on the show.

Eric Kiker  55:12

Thanks, Michael!

Michael Maher  55:12

I enjoyed myself, I can't wait.

Eric Kiker  55:14

Me too.

Michael Maher  55:14

Until we have our next conversation. And I can't wait until we get to meet in person. 

Eric Kiker  55:18

All right, man, I'm loving it. 

Michael Maher  55:20

This has been The Longer Game where we talked about the future of retail and apparently just the future of the world. I think that what we've talked about today talking about altruistic capitalism, a lot of people look down upon capitalism. And I think, you know, there's bad people in every single area and aspect. And I think that capital, capitalism has the power to really help and change the world. And so I think the future of retail, as we look at people shopping across multiple channels and consumer behavior changing, people are really making decisions about the brands that they buy, that fit into their lifestyle, and that like Eric has said many times help them to feel better about themselves. And so I think the way forward with retail is not just being on the channel, but it's about being intentional about your consumer and helping people to love themselves more. So thanks for tuning in. Thanks for tuning in everyone. And see y'all later.